- October 16, 2013
- 260
Polish Ambassador for Lithuania Jarosław Czubiński: The past does not have to be an obstacle for the future
22 years ago, on the 5th of September, diplomatic relations between Poland and Lithuania were resumed. His Excellency Ambassador of the Republic of Poland, Jaroslaw Czubinski, in an interview for DELFI said: ‘Public opinion polls are surprising: only 3% of Lithuanians know Poland and only 3% of Poles know Lithuania. It is happening in the 13th year of the 21st century! Lack of knowledge bears terrible outcomes. We must know more about each other and not be content with visiting shops in Suwalki or concerned with the behaviour of hooligans on stadiums.’
What was the situation you faced after you arrived to Vilnius and what would you like to leave for your successor?
This is a very good question, as it touches both the past and the future. I come from Central Poland and I have not had any emotional attachment to Lithuania. Before leaving for Vilnius, I had been preparing for this post for about a year: I think I have read everything I could find, I spoke to many people in Poland. Having arrived here I found a normalised environment created by my predecessors. When it comes to the future – I would like to see, most of all, well developing relations between Poland and Lithuania.
Our neighbouring countries are connected through economic relations. The biggest taxpayers in Lithuania is ‘Orlen Lietuva,’ which is a part of the Polish ‘Orlen.’ I would like to touch upon the issue of energy production: LitPol Link, energy bridge, is currently under construction. There is also a gas connection planned… What is the future of these projects?
To these projects, I would like to add a railway connection ‘Rail Baltica,’ and a highway ‘Via Baltica.’ We have been discussing them for a long time…
But their realisation is very slow…
30 – 40 years ago, in the Soviet times, constructions were begun without major preparations. Decisions were made and a big ditch was done. Then the foundations were getting rotten and, as a result, something different than planned was coming out. Today, when our countries are members of the EU, everything looks different: the preparation period is very long, and then construction is quick, because the end result is important for us all. The projects mentioned above are strategic on the scale of whole Europe. Lets look at the gas pipeline, for instance. Brussels has apportioned funds for the project. To start does not mean to put the pipelines in the ground. The realisation of such big construction projects should be conducted in a definite mode; there are issues connected with the protection of the environment, talks with local inhabitants, etc. It is about 5000 km of the gas pipeline, elements of which will be installed by Poland at it’s own cost. This is not a joke – this is very costly. For instance, Poland determined that ‘Via Baltica’ would be built by 2020. I would like to stress it again – the EU is not the Soviet era, thus we have to be very well prepared.
There is one more energy project, in which Poland was taking part at the beginning. But its fate is unknown. It is a nuclear power station in Visaginas. Those opposing the project presented Poland’s resignation as a smart move. It is hard to ask about Poland’s stands on the subject, if the Lithuanian government has not made any decisions.
Precisely. It is difficult to made a decision when there is no decision taken by Lithuania. Poland has numerously highlighted that it has it’s own interests in Visaginas. This issue still exists. In Poland itself, atomic energy was being developed already in the Soviet times. 50km outside of Gdansk, a construction of an atomic plant was begun. There were even foundations built. Now, of course, everything has to be built all over again, however all seismic, geologic and other tests have shown that it is the best place in Poland to build a nuclear power plant.
Energy production programme has existed in Poland for a long time. There is the government’s special committee. We are choosing the right moment when it will be possible and necessary to start building. It is a shame that the crisis has slowed down the whole process, we are no longer talking about 2020-2022, when the first nuclear power plant was planned to be opened, but the plan still exists.
What is the Polish society’s attitude towards our neighbours in OK and in Belarus in the case of building an atomic power plant? It is close to the countries’ boundaries.
An attitude is similar to the one of the Lithuanian society. There is anxiety about safety. It is a shared danger.
But it is also a shared aim to avoid this danger.
Of course, but one has to take into consideration that time is running out and the danger is growing.
Polish Charter
I know that you were a director of the Consular Department in the Ministry of the Interior, thus I would also like to ask about the Polish Charter (Karta Polaka), which is issued in Polish consulates. This strange phenomenon takes place only on a given territory. What is the idea behind it?
I do not have any right to comment on legislation of my own country. I am not a deputy.
But this legislation works outside of the Polish borders.
Yes. The Polish parliament has decided that this legislation is needed and I, as a public official, am to realise it. This subject was mentioned at the meeting of the presidents of our countries.
Polish Charter is issued on the post-USSR territories. It is a shame that the Baltic countries also belong to this groups, even though they are members of the European Union. All concessions are not available for us, because we do not need visas. Is not the Charter an anachronism?
This subject has been already discussed.
Local governments in competence of Lithuanian schools
What is your view on the original spelling of surnames and bilingual street name signs?
There is no such problem in Poland; we write towns’ names in both languages.
I do know that you do it in both languages, I have seen the signs on which ‘Punskas’ is written in red and ‘Punsk’ is not.
This is under investigation in Poland. I’m stressing that what matters here are human and minority rights. For instance, German minority group in Poland holds two seats in the Polish Parliament.
If the street’s name is both Pušų and Sosnowa, in which language should we write it on a letter?
In an official language, of course.
What is happening with Lithuanian schools in Poland? They are being closed down.
You should ask local governments. After a month and a half of working in Vilnius, I have drawn a conclusion that the essence of the problem is a definition of self-governments and their different functions in Poland and Lithuania. After 15 years we have manage to reform local governments on post-Soviet territories. Currently, local governing bodies appropriate 70% of the country’s budget. It means that 70% of the power is on the lowest level, closest to citizens. Warsaw has kept only a controlling package. Government’s representatives only make observations if the money goes to schools, road constructions, hospitals, and that it is not spent on sweets. If the local council votes to buy sweets, the voivode has a right to keep the money so that it is not spent on them. Most power in a voivodeship lies in the hands of a marshal. Then there is a mayor and voyt. They get an appropriate portion of the budget and the country only observes how it is spent. The voyt of Punskas has made a difficult decision to close schools. The voyt has its council, which decides what the money will be spent on. I would like to stress that this year around 1000 schools were closed down in Poland. There is a small number of small schools and pupils are transported to the bigger ones.
We should know about each other more
I would like to touch upon a topic of cooperation between Polish and Russian servicemen. Baltic countries border on NATO along a 106 km of Polish-Lithuanian border. In NATO’s defense plans of Baltic countries, the Polish army plays a big role and Poland is not against this.
This is the best example of cooperation. It is a common airspace – Baltic Air Police. This year our naval vessels were looking for mines on your territorial waters.
Such issues as the way of writing ‘W’ are breaking strategic and important relations.
I can only repeat what Polish politicians were saying – these are matters which are to be resolved within the country of Lithuania, between the Lithuanian government and the citizens of the Republic of Lithuania. As the Polish prime minister said not so long ago – Poland has turned to Lithuania in order for it to show more empathy in the case of the Polish minority groups in Lithuania.
Doing research in a preparation for this interview, I read on the website of the Lithuanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs that between 2006 and 2012 Lithuanian government has paid 55 official visits to Poland and there were only 38 visits of Polish officials in Lithuania. I would like to draw an attention to the fact that Lithuania is 10 times smaller than Poland. It is understandable that Poland is aware of its importance in the politics of the EU, your Minister of Foreign Affairs, Radoslaw Sikorski, actively participates in the Eastern Partnership initiative. In this context, one may have an impression that Lithuania is important for Poland only when it comes to the issues of Polish minority groups.
The statistics of these meetings may change a real picture. Our ministers of the interior contact with the use of technology, for instance through Twitter, they also have a phone connection.
I do agree that the politics is not arithmetic. Nevertheless, you have heard about the outcome of the talks of our ambassadors in Budapest and Baku?
These circumstances cannot be compared. I constantly stress that there is no real power in Poland which could put Lithuania in danger. And the other way round – there are many people with sincere intentions towards Lithuania. Thus, I stress that we need to know about each other more. Social studies are surprising: only 3% of Lithuanians know Poland and only 3% of Poles know Lithuania. It is happening in the 13th year of the 21st century. Lack of knowledge bears terrible outcomes. We must know more about each other and not be content with visiting shops in Suwalki or concerned with the behaviour of hooligans on stadiums.
We have to see more of Poland than of its extremism
What is an inhabitantsof Vilnius supposed to think when he sees groups of Polish people in the Old Town singing ‘Jeszcze Polska nie zginela?’ (‘Poland Has Not Yet Perished’) It has more influence than defense plans of NATO and Poland’s role in them. Not many people know that Poland has accepted responsibility of defense and has not passed it on shoulders of others. The fly is in the ointment.
We should see more of Poland than of it’s extremisms in Poland itself. The country is ready to defend Baltic Sea countries if something terrible happens. Polish hunters fly over Baltic countries as a part of the airspace mission of NATO. Everything is ready to create Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian brigade. The best example is an agreement about the control of the airspace. Currently, Lithuania controls a part of the Polish airspace.
Many good deeds are done quietly.
What we ought to fight with is the lack of knowledge. The 3% mentioned above is the worst danger for our countries. The past does not have to an obstacle for the future, but a source of knowledge.
Tłumaczenie by Awa Ratajczak w ramach praktyk w Europejskiej Fundacji Praw Człowieka, www.efhr.eu. Translated by Awa Ratajczak within the framework of a traineeship programme of the European Foundation of Human Rights, www.efhr.eu.
